On Dramaturgy (part I): Devising our own contexts as young dramaturgs
February 24, 2024
Elsbeth Hoefkens – a young dramaturg, theatre maker, former fellow student, and dear friend of mine – is my guest and partner for today. We are about to go on a venture together, navigating through a series of questions about the role of the dramaturg and dramaturgy at large. Mostly by drawing on our personal experiences and stimuli, Elsbeth and I are genuinely sharing our perspectives, refraining from making grant statements or offering definite answers.
Alexandra Drakoulaki (AD): Welcome Elsbeth, how are you?
Elsbeth Hoefkens (EH): Thank you. I'm good, I am looking forward to this conversation!
AD: Thank you very much for being here! Before we start our conversation, would you like to say a few words about yourself, and, maybe, explain your relationship to dramaturgy?
EH: Well, I did a bachelor’s in theatre education and afterwards I felt I wanted a more theoretical foundation in my work. And then I found out that there was a master’s on dramaturgy. At the time, I wasn't quite sure what dramaturgy encompassed. I'm still not sure [laughter]. But, I did my master’s together with you [in Contemporary Theatre, Dance, and Dramaturgy | Utrecht University]. And now I am teaching partly, I am, also, trying to make a performance, and trying to get some work as a dramaturg as well.
AD: But you also did your internship as an assistant dramaturg at ITA (International Theatre Amsterdam) which, I think, has offered you a hands-on perspective on dramaturgy that will add to this discussion.
#1: What is dramaturgy for you?
EH: Well, the first thing that pops up for me is creating meaning in all kinds of ways: how things on stage, or things outside the performance context, get meaning, and how we can manipulate them to create a certain meaning.
AD: How would you characterize dramaturgy in the first place? Is it an artform, or a science, or…?
EH: I think I would call it a perspective, a kind of lens to look at certain things. So I think it's nothing in itself, it is always something in relation to something else.
AD: It is relational, yes.
If we talk about the performance context, I think that dramaturgy is ‘a constant act of zooming in and out’ that offers the makers and also the audience (at a later stage) a more specific experience. It is about helping your team work towards a performance that helps spectators make a certain sense. And, it's very organic in the sense that it depends on who you're working with, what you are working on, where you are, who you are, and all these things together. And this vagueness/openness excites me! This is also why I chose it, even though I didn’t choose it deliberately [laughter]. I don't know how you ended up studying dramaturgy…
EH: I had heard of the word before but I wasn't sure exactly what it was, what it entailed. But, during our master’s, I felt like ‘oh, wait, being a dramaturg is really a part of my character.’ For example, my curiosity plays a big role in being a dramaturg. This curiosity is the engine that guides you through all kinds of topics and projects, and I think that, among other things, it is also a quality that people have before they even come into contact with the term dramaturg.
AD: The word itself comes from the greek words ‘drama’ – the action – and ‘ergon’ – to make or to create something. So, the etymology of the word shows that dramaturgy is something that is very much based on the process. It is relational, but it's also processual, as director Joachim Robbrecht says.
#2: How does dramaturgy contribute to the overall production of a performance?
AD: I think this question refers to the production of a performance both as a process and as the outcome.
EH: When I think back to my internship and the things I learned there, besides focusing on the content of the performance, the layer of social dramaturgy of a process also played a big role. What I mean by that is that not only the dramaturgy of the content is important, but also the dramaturgy of how people work together and what the human process during the making process requires at any given moment. So at one point I had a conversation with my supervisor about something related to performance content, but then he said, ‘Yeah, I agree with you, but we need to wait because the actors or the director needs something different right now.’ And I think, if you look at the dramaturgy of this process, of the social process, this really contributes to the outcome of the production because during the rehearsals you are not only creating a performance but, with all the people in the process, you also create a team to “bring” a performance.
AD: It’s like bringing another dimension to the performance making process; you mentioned your supervisor/dramaturg of the performance, the actors, the director... There are multiple parties participating in this process. But, for me, the dramaturg needs to be the most critical one; most people who are engaged in the creation of a performance are really immersed into particular segments of it. The director, for example, is, most of the times, deep into an idea that they have in mind, examining all possible ways they can make it happen; the cast - actors and actresses - are really into what the director asks of them, how they can/cannot relate to it ,how they're going to embody it, and so on so forth. But the dramaturg is also there to make a connection between what is happening in this creative process and what is going to happen when the audience will be there to experience the performance. So that's why I refer to the dramaturg as a critical eye or as an outside eye, as many call it, because it is the one who is the closest to the spectatorial experience when everyone else is concentrated on particular elements. So, the value of the role of the dramaturg in general is in opening up different layers and different doors that pave the way for new possibilities.
Elsbeth Hoefkens (left) and Alexandra Drakoulaki (right) conversing "On Dramatrurgy (part I), February 20, 2024.
#3: How does dramaturgy differ from playwriting and directing?
AD: Do you remember Antonia (another former fellow classmate of ours)? Antonia, who is from Germany, once said that before studying dramaturgy in the Netherlands she thought that dramaturgy was very similar/close to playwriting. I guess this is due to the different perceptions of the role of the dramaturg in different contexts. In my view, there may be some textual work that the dramaturg does, or there might be some assistance offered to the director, but the dramaturg is separate from both.
EH: And when you work with a text-based performance, then of course you work together with the playwright and look from that critical distance at what is written and how it can be put together with the directing style. I think that the playwright or scenographer look at particular parts of the performance, while the dramaturg takes a step back and views the entire performance. And I think the dramaturg is able to do that because of the 'luxury' position the dramaturg can take, namely: sitting back for a while, observing the director and performers as they work to create meaning, and reminding them of the simple question ‘what is being created now?’
AD: Sort of grounding the whole team.
EH: Yeah, like defining the things and asking questions, but in a supportive way. This is the social thing that I said: what is all happening here, what does it mean content-wise but also in the group process?
AD: Have you ever been engaged in the making of a performance where you felt that maybe the cast or the director, somebody was so immersed into in their thoughts, that you felt that the dramaturg was necessary to, sort of, rescue them and to bring them back to the process?
EH: I once witnessed an actor saying to the dramaturg ‘okay, the director wants me to do this, but I don't feel like that that's the right thing to do.’ And then the dramaturg said ‘okay, I get that in scene x and y, but we, as viewers, go through the whole performance and we receive a totally different thing than what you might experience.’ So, in that sense, the dramaturg helps to create the bigger picture of the viewer instead of the experience of the actor.
#4: What does the role of the dramaturg entail? Why is it commonly perceived as intervening?
AD: Maybe I should first ask: ‘do you believe that the role of the dramaturg is commonly perceived as intervening?
EH: Yes, I think so. Because I think that the making process of a performance is really fragile. And I also know, as I have made a couple of performances myself, that someone saying something about what you're making feels vulnerable. And in a way, that's the role of the dramaturg, like saying, ‘hi, I'm seeing what you're doing and I have some (critical) comments.’ So in a way, there's this fragile bubble that you need to open up. But I think that should not be a bad thing. A dramaturg is not there to criticize, but to contribute to the process by defining what someone is doing, questioning certain things, thinking in possibilities, and helping the director in his/her/their style and vision. You?
AD: Well, I also have the same feeling: most people perceive the dramaturg as an intrusive person. But what I'm really fighting for, is that the dramaturg be an integral part of the team. Because compared to the director or the cast or the rest of the team, the dramaturg is always a step back because this is what the role requires them. But at the same time, I feel like we need to make it more clear that the dramaturg being a step back doesn't mean that they are out of the team. But my question is, how do we make the dramaturg be experienced more as part of a team and less of an external collaborator that is here to criticize or give any type of commentary, or to intervene in the process? Or, to even shed light on the audience’s experience when this may not even be the makers’ priority in the first place?
EH: Yes, I feel it is really important that the whole team feels that the dramaturg is there for the performance, for the process, and not just to be critical. I think that, as a dramaturg, it is very good to share your observations and thoughts with the team despite having some distance and watching as an outsider. And, of course, [it is very good to] be positive too, because being a dramaturg is not just about giving (negative) feedback; it is also about asking: what do we want… is it working like we want it to be…what if…?
AD: I think what you said, that the dramaturg is there for the team and with the team, just sums it up very well. But I don’t want to forget the first part of the question: what is the role of a dramaturg entail? The dramaturg of the performance making processes is one thing, but there was also the dramaturgy other contexts, for example in photography. There's also the dramaturg who writes reviews, there's also the dramaturg/copywriter who writes about performances for festivals or for theatre halls who deals more with the text and how performances are presented and communicated to people. Also, the dramaturg who is holding interviews and is responsible for the whole dramaturgy of the interview questions. I feel that compared to the role of the dramaturg as an external eye in a performance making process, I feel much more comfortable and safer preoccupying with these aspects, without being targeted as the 'intruder.'
EH: What I always prefer to say: I want to be like a critical friend of the director. So, in a way, 'I have this critical sight, but you can trust me, I want to be a partner to you. But we have a different role.' Yet, reaching this point of being a critical friend, is such a hard thing. If you already know each other, maybe that's easier, but if you're working together with a new director, how do you get there?
AD: But also, the question of how you get there one time after the other? Every time that you have to get familiar with the context and reposition yourself within the new team dynamics.
EH: And, I think that this connection has to be there from the beginning. Like, if you're applying for a job, or if a director is asking you to work together, I think you already feel if it's going to work out or not.
#5: Is a dramaturg really necessary? Or is it a dramaturgical standpoint enough?
AD: I actually wrote my internship research report on that. I did my internship at the programming department of a Performing Arts Festival. And we had to make a proposal of a research question based on which our internship would be built. And I remember initially, my thesis question was something like ‘how can the role of the dramaturg contribute to the programming of a performing arts festival? But as soon as my internship actually started, I knew that it wouldn’t be my question anymore. So, I replaced the word ‘dramaturg’ with ‘the dramaturgical standpoint.’ Because I could see my colleagues having this dramaturgical quality that was needed of them as program managers or programmers of a performing arts festival without being dramaturgs. I don't think this is something everybody can have. It is a very delicate skill that you need to work on. However, having a dramaturg who is only there with the property of the dramaturg is in many contexts necessary.
EH: I think I do agree with you. Because in your experience as a festival programmer, I think everyone is kind of a dramaturg, because you all have this zoomed out position: what is the whole festival all about; what performances and installations would fit; what do we want to convey, etc. But, I think that, in only one performance, this role needs to be more distinct, because the director can’t focus strictly on the dramaturgy as this role has so many things to focus on. But this also depends on the specific director and also on the actors and the whole team. Because if you for example have highly experienced actors, then they also have this dramaturgical perspective, because they have a lot of experience. And if you work with very young actors or non professional actors, then you really need this role more explicit, I think.
Elsbeth Hoefkens (left) and Alexandra Drakoulaki (right) conversing "On Dramatrurgy (part I), February 20, 2024.
#6: What are the challenges faced by dramaturgs nowadays?
AD: First of all, with dramaturgy being a very new concept there are a lot of contexts that don't recognize the value of dramaturgy...it is simply not in their agendas. Even for me coming from Greece where theatre is very active, there are very few dramaturgs, dramaturgy is a new term there. And, if I self-identify as a dramaturg and I want to position myself as such within a professional context, then I also need to search for the workplace or for an environment that recognizes my work. And from what I've seen, some contexts in northwest Europe can be such places, but I'm afraid that for the largest part of the world, dramaturgy just doesn't exist.
But even in contexts where the dramaturg is recognized, has an education and a professional position, there is a close circle of consolidated dramaturgs that does not leave room for young professionals to get a place. Let me just make more specific: we are in the Netherlands, dramaturgy exists, not in a great extent, but it is here. Yet, you will never see a call for dramaturgs, you will never find a vacancy for dramaturgs. It's mostly the case that theatres know their own dramaturgs, directors know their own dramaturgs. That's what I mean by consolidation, that the art scene is somehow 'arranged' that there is no much flexibility for new professionals to find their place.
EH: In addition to that, I think what you describe is a wider problem in the art world in the Netherlands. But, for example, with actors or directors, there are some programs or there are some ways where young professionals can find small openings and show themselves to the world. But as a dramaturg, there's nothing like that; you should just mail people and visit performances, talk with people, and try to find hidden doors. You need to find your way into the field.
AD: To find your way or to just make your way.
EH: Yes, and as a young dramaturg I would love to work with also young makers, learn from them and gain experience. But, in the Netherlands, young makers usually don’t have the budget for a dramaturg. So as a young dramaturg, there is a big gap between a novice dramaturg and an experienced dramaturg, and there are not many opportunities to bridge this gap.
AD: I think one more challenge has to do with this constant change of teams, contexts and dynamics. Not only do you have to find a new team time after time but also you have to create an atmosphere or an attitude that feels as safe as possible for everybody. You have to position yourself you have to reintroduce yourself time after time. I haven't reached that point yet, but I feel that it can get exhausting. It's super exciting too though, because by re-introducing yourself you also go through the process of re-knowing yourself. But, at the same time, compared to an office job, for example, when you have your routine, go to the office and do what you have to do, in the case of the dramaturg, not only do you have the actual ‘dramaturgical work' that needs to be done but you also need to devise this setting/context anew.
EH: I think that if you are someone who does different projects or performances, you enter a new world with each performance. And like travelling, like going to a new country, this is both exciting and exhausting. And of course, if you're an actor, you also enter a different world every time you work with a different director, but then your role is stable; you're an actor and you did an audition for a specific role. And, of course, the creative process itself is also exciting and exhausting for the actors, but as a dramaturg, you have to shape your own role within that.
AD: Do you feel that this excites you or frightens you more?
EH: It excites me! I think that's kind of a quality also, you need to like this kind of new newness every time. Both in the content as well as in the group you’re in.
#7: How can someone pursue a career in dramaturgy?
AD: Well, if after all this conversation, you still want to pursue a career in dramaturgy…[laughter]
Let’s first say that there are some master’s programs like the one we did in Utrecht, but also in Amsterdam, in the USA, UK, Australia where you can get this theoretical and practical exposure to the field. Networking is really important so if you want to pursue a career in dramaturgy, you really have to put yourself out there. And it needs confidence and courage; you can’t go that way without it.
EH: Yeah, you should not be the person to give up easily. You need to put yourself out there. But I think who you are as a person is also really important in this job, because, as we already said, it's really about working with all kinds of people. Therefore, you need to have a match with the people you work. You have to be very clear about your interests and what you can bring to the process. So, I think it's not only about putting yourself out there but also the questions of ‘how do you put yourself out there,’ or ‘who am I as a dramaturg?’ You're your personality on one way, but also your interests, ethics, what you do and do not want… And I think that if you're asked to participate in a project which feels like ‘yeah, interesting, but not for me,’ then you should also be honest about that!
AD: If you want to be a dramaturg, and you don't want to study that, I think it's possible. Because I think that what we've been talking about really makes a portrayal for a personality and a character. And I believe that if you are this person who has ideas, wants to help others in their creative endeavors, can juggle between all different 'caps,' but also different perspectives and somehow make a contribution to the performance process and outcome, I believe that, yes, you can do this. Of course, you have to keep on training that, like we do. But I believe it's really possible!
EH: On the one hand, I do agree with that. But looking at what we talked about earlier, about the very narrow and specific working field, I do feel that if there are some vacancies or jobs available then mostly there are a lot of people up for the job. And, in my experience, they do look first at your CV, and what kind of education you have had and filter candidates based on that.
AD: For sure. But I've also seen a lot of dramaturgs who ended up being dramaturgs after being visual artists or directors or playwrights, and now they self-identify as dramaturgs without having the education background.
EH: Yes that’s true. I think you already have a network and then it's going the other way around.
AD: Yes, a network and a dramaturgical standpoint.
Is there any final thought that you'd like to share?
EH: It feels like we have been a bit negative. It’s a challenge, in a way, but I also feel like that it is maybe the most beautiful job I know. And at the end of it, I really enjoy being a dramaturg.
AD: I think this slight negativity is mostly because we are also personally very much into putting ourselves on the market and making up possibilities.
EH: Yes, it's the real story, but we do it with a lot of love.
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